The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

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The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby Neil83 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:08 pm

The La’s ‘Live & Dangerous’ Upstairs at the Picket 5/6/1987 – Viper 137

Released: 16th of March 2020 – DOWNLOAD

The La’s ‘Live & Dangerous’ Upstairs at The Picket, is one of the most remembered and revered gigs of 1980’s Liverpool. Just months before signing their major recording contract,The La’s had already made their mark and had a devout following who sensed something big was about to happen! A perfect time to commit a live set to tape- we hear a band on top form, brimming with attitude, songs and colour. Add to this mix the first ever performance and recording of their most loved hit ‘There She Goes’ and you can’t really go wrong. Pure magic in the making!

TRACKS
1. Son of a Gun
2. Freedom Song
3. Clean Prophet
4. Come in Come out
5. Way Out
6. IOU
7. Timeless Melody
8. I Can’t Sleep
9. Doledrum
10. Liberty Ship
11. Callin’ All
12. Failure
13. There She Goes
14. Looking Glass
15. Jumpin’ Jack Flash
16. Failure

http://www.the-viper-label.co.uk/the-las-live-dangerous-upstairs-at-the-picket-5-6-1987-viper-137
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby Sean » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:19 pm

Not particularly looking forward to this to be honest. Not keen on how the Viper stuff sounds. The picket session demo’s are really trebley and tinny sounding compared to the original ones that we online years previously. Hopefully this’ll be better but doubt I’ll be purchasing. Lost a lot of interest La’s wise these past couple of years, things have been so quiet. Guess Lee’s finally being left alone!
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby Tony » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:41 pm

I'll check it out on Spotify most likely.

It's um.. Almost a reissue, isn't it? Viper surely have more interesting stuff.

I like that gig but Viper have sold us this before, so I'm wondering 1) any improvement on the mix (unlikely considering the only known source)? And 2) why are they not using something else anyway?

I guess they're going for the historical angle with TSG.
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby Dan » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:43 pm

Sean wrote:Not particularly looking forward to this to be honest. Not keen on how the Viper stuff sounds. The picket session demo’s are really trebley and tinny sounding compared to the original ones that we online years previously.


That's because they transfer everything from a CD to minidisc and back to CD via an analogue connection. LOL

Almost everything they release is therefore lossy quality, and they do it deliberately. Now, you decide why they do that.

Why, like the Stairs stuff, would anyone go to the trouble of transferring vintage reel to reels, and then at the last stage, copy the masters to a CD-R, then transfer it to an obsolete lossy digital format and then back to CD? With Edgar's stuff - the Bid Kids tracks and Skin up that were initially released on covermount CDs were fine, and then when this label got them they were lossy. Why would you NOT want to present stuff in the best possible sound quality?
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby Sean » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:04 am

That process baffles me to be honest. I’m not an expert at stuff like that but I’m stumped as to why that is how it is. I’d be quite interested to hear from someone at Viper why they do that. As I said, that kinda thing goes over my head a bit but it doesn’t sound very good to my ears. Surely that’s not helpful to a label or the artists its releasing?
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby Dan » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:10 pm

The official line I believe is they like the way it sounds! Basically MP3 quality.

Here's Skin Up For Me Baby by The Stairs - 2 "frequency spectrum" graphs, top is the original covermount CD version and the bottom is the Viper one:

Image
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby RyanSams1967 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:11 pm

I'd rather hear something we've not already heard before - like the stuff they recorded with Lee in 1999. They seem to be just trying to cash in on the 30th anniversary of the album here. Boring.
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby harry » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:26 pm

Viper response



This concert is being released as a download because it has never been released in it’s entirety before. Nothing to do with any anniversary.


Most of the old master cassettes were transferred to either CDR or Mini Disc at some point. A CDR or mini disc might be used for mastering. A mini disc uses the same sampling rate as a CDR. It is actually like a CDR but smaller. A mini disc uses a digital compression, meaning that it changes the music slightly upon decompression. This modification is not noticeable to a normal person ( unless you have super human hearing or a dog ) and is much better than a cassette tape !!!


The mastering takes place in a professional mastering studio which has £1000 of worth of equipment . The mastering person and Paul Hemmings have over 40 years of studio experience between them. First and foremost, Paul wants to achieve the best listening experience for himself !!! In this case, the concert will be dehissed, reEQed etc etc to give the listener the best that can be achieved.


At some stage in the mastering process, this is going to be digitalised whether you like it or not. Every endeavour is made to produce the best listening experience with whatever project we are involved in but we can’t please all the people all of the time.
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby Tony » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:44 pm

cheers harry

harry wrote:Viper response
Most of the old master cassettes were transferred to either CDR or Mini Disc at some point. A CDR or mini disc might be used for mastering. A mini disc uses the same sampling rate as a CDR. It is actually like a CDR but smaller. A mini disc uses a digital compression, meaning that it changes the music slightly upon decompression. This modification is not noticeable to a normal person ( unless you have super human hearing or a dog ) and is much better than a cassette tape !!!


It's not "better than a cassette tape" when the source IS cassette tape. Of course they're just talking about the format, rather than the source.... why?

Shrug. My opinion remains unmoved
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby harry » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:17 pm

I think Viper is talking about the same compressing which happens whether you put something on cassette, mini disc etc etc.

It doesn't matter what the source recording is as it can be improved through mastering.

Ultimately don't buy it if in doubt !!!
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby jamesimaci1996 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:44 pm

This is my measured response on Viper's response because I believe their response is tainted and in some places exaggerated, narcissistic or a dig at others I will explain why.

"The mastering takes place in a professional mastering studio which has £1000 of worth of equipment."

I believe the £1000 is a rounded number made to look aesthetic and flash. The problem also lies that £1000 is a very small amount for this type of equipment as some of it can go into the tens of thousands of pounds.


"Paul wants to achieve the best listening experience for himself !!!"

Shouldn't Paul want to achieve the best listening experience for the listener? Why should it tailor his needs?


"this is going to be digitalised whether you like it or not"

Anyone who knows Lee and his opinion on digital recordings will know this is a clear dig at Lee and his fanatics. Lee admires analogue recordings so much so it is believed he has an old sixties mixing desk in his house. As a Mavers enthusiast I take this as a dig.

If Viper wants to come out and reply, do so. I'll be waiting.
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby harry » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:43 pm

"The mastering takes place in a professional mastering studio which has £1000 of worth of equipment."

This should have said £1000's worst of equipment. Not made to look flash in the slightest but to show it's a professional mastering studio and want to get the best we can out of the source material.

Paul wants to achieve the best listening experience for himself !!!"

Someone who has been the the music business for so long, will have more experience than your average person. It's not tailoring for his needs. He just wants to try to achieve the best listening experience he can for everyone.

"this is going to be digitalised whether you like it or not"

Not a dig in the slightest. Everything adds up being digitalised at some point whether it's a CD or a download etc etc. Paul has actually used Lee's desk and prefers the analogue sound.

Over and out as we want to continue making and releasing music and not discussing it.
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby Dan » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:49 pm

What a load of utter nonsense. Minidisc is a lossy format - end of story. What has a cassette tape got to do with anything? They are taking vintage analogue recordings, and then only releasing them in lossy sound quality. There would be the same issue if they were originally digital recordings - they are downsampling everything to a digital resolution that is lower than CD. FACT.

No professional would transfer recordings to even a CD-R, let alone lossy quality minidisc via an analogue connection. You will only get sound degradation doing it - and what is the purpose of it? Can they explain the benefit of doing it? Of course not. You would take the digital transfers and master them properly, you wouldn't transfer to a CD-R, then to a minidisc, then back to a CD-R and then onto a computer.

They are relying on people not knowing what they're talking about, coupled with the probability THEY don't know what they're talking about.
Last edited by Dan on Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby Dan » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:51 pm

harry wrote:
"this is going to be digitalised whether you like it or not"

Not a dig in the slightest. Everything adds up being digitalised at some point whether it's a CD or a download etc etc. Paul has actually used Lee's desk and prefers the analogue sound.


Um, except this isn't the issue. If you are releasing something on CD or download, then obviously it's going to be digitised?!? The issue is transfering everything to a lossy digital format that is lower resolution than a CD. A professional would master from the original digital transfer and THEN downsample to CD or whatever format. The Stairs second album for instance was already mastered before Viper decided to transfer to minidisc before they released it. The Aviator stuff they've released is lossy quality too.
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Re: The Viper Label - Viper 137 - ‘Live & Dangerous’

Postby jamesimaci1996 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:13 pm

To Viper,

I have read your critique of my opinions and I have a legitimate response to reply with.

"have more experience than your average person"

I am afraid Paul may have more experience and understanding but if Joe Soap was to pick up the album, he would not know the difference between an album with more experience or less experience.


"He just wants to try to achieve the best listening experience he can for everyone."

Why then did you have to originally state that it was for him, was your narcissism on steroids when you composed your first message? Or maybe Paul cared more about himself than all the listeners and this backfired as we now have to please the La's community such as us.


"Paul has actually used Lee's desk and prefers the analogue sound."

Well can't you be the better man and ask Lee's permission to use the desk? Why can he not look for a studio that uses analogue sounds? If Paul prefers this why then, have we went digital with the album?


"Over and out as we want to continue making and releasing music and not discussing it."

Re-vamping old tapes of Lee is not making music. You are cleaning up tapes and producing them for the public. Lee Mavers made the music, always remember that wether if he is not here in body or not. You are showing to the fanatics the narcissism of the Viper label. Be ashamed.
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